Why it must be Webb

This is the first in a likely one-part series, but I like keeping options open. A little news item, highlighted by SusanG at Kos first because I'm a turtle of slowness today, had John McCain highlighting his support for Sen. Webb's new GI Bill.

As SusanG highlighted:


I'm happy to tell you that we probably agreed to an increase in educational benefits for our veterans that not only gives them  increase in their educational benefits, but if they stay in for a certain period of time than they can transfer those educational benefits to their spouses and or children. That's a very important aspect I think of incentivizing people of staying in the military.

Now, I likely needn't remind anyone here that McCain actively opposed this GI Bill for its supposed overgenerosity. His lack of support hinged on statistics showing increased military drop-out if benefits began sooner than his preferred plan, even though an equal percentage would enlist, thus negating the dropoff.

But McCain taking credit on this ... well, it shows a Bushlike degree of Chutzpah.

Now, when I write the definitive tome "The Decline and Fall of the Republican Empire" (just kidding, I have no follow through), I'm going to subtitle it "The Age of Chutzpah." Or maybe "The Decline and Fall..." will be the subtitle. Since this book exists only in the library of dreams, I'll let Lucius and Morpheus (and any geeks who get the reference) decide. I've digressed long enough.

Chutzpah, by the way, is hard to define. Kind of like Farfegnugan or the difference between a Shlemiel and a Shlemazel. Think of Chutzpah a shameful action, undertaken without shame. Like returning a shoplifted CD for store credit. Or an AWOL draft dodger accusing a wounded war veteran of faking his illnesses.

But it's a special sort of chutzpah to take credit for a bill you actively opposed. The sort of chutzpah we've seen when adulterers impeach a president for adultery, prostitute-mongers run on morality tickets, rich Connecticutlets run as homey Texas cowboys, and oil execs wage war on uncooperative oil-rich nations and get offended by the assumption that they're just doing it for the oil.

From Joe Lieberman to the recent FISA bill, Chutzpah wins the day in the current Washington swamp and John "Campaign Finance Reformer / Campaign Finance Criminal" McCain is GREAT at it.

The problem is, people in DC don't like calling others on it. It's impolite. Impolitic. Ugly partisan vaingooglery, whatever that means. Gotcha politics. Etc.

That's why Jim Webb would be great. He could make this one flip flop by McCain into McCain's "inventing of the Internet."

Reason 1: He authored the bill. It's in his name. He has the authority to mention it at every campaign stop.

Reason 2: He would. Webb's plain-spokenness is real, compared to Obama's polish and poise. Webb called out the President of the US on his Chutzpah to ask how Webb's son in Iraq was doing -- Webb wouldn't hold back on the campaign trail. For all the negative headlines by aghast Washingtonian McKcainob-polishers, it would make the rest of America take notice.

Reason 3: McCain would have to explain himself time and time again, which would be fun to watch.

Reasons 4-10: Virginia is in play, Webb's Scotch-Irish ancestry and his fondness for Confederate History would play amazingly in the history books with an Obama presidency, Running for the empty seat would give Kaine something to do after his gubernatorial stint is over in the bizarrely term-limited state.

Reason 11: Obama-Webb looks good on paper. Actual paper. It won't mess up the logo much. Lots more circles. Ask a graphic designer.

There. And yes, Obama and Clinton looked GREAT in their Unity even today. I know. But it's not going to happen. Too much drama and soap opera. We want the soap opera to trail McCain, not our guy. Plus Hillary will look even better telling Scalia to his face to shut up when she gets on the Supreme Court.

Maybe Bill would be better on the court. Or both of them. The Clintons on the supreme court would get all those right-wing impeachment preachers really pantie-tangled. Now THATS some Chutzpah I can believe in.



Display:


Re: Why it must be Webb (2.00 / 5)

Sorry, no sexists on the ticket for me--Webb's writings are a "dealbreaker" as they should be to any progressive.


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 05:58:38 PM EST

Re: Why it must be Webb (none / 0)

there is nothing that webb brings that hillary does not bring in spades.

Plus webb has the unique position of being the republican version of joe leiberman


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 06:07:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why it must be Webb (1.50 / 2)

Nobody takes you seriously dude. Why do you even try?


Mooseburgers? Careful Sarah. Moose bite back!
by spacemanspiff on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 06:31:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why it must be Webb (1.00 / 0)

to ensure you puppies follow me around...


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 06:58:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why it must be Webb (1.50 / 2)

Your lazy troll ass is in practically every diary.

Kind of hard to avoid you when you are trolling this hard.

Pathetic how you jacked sricki's handle.

Again, why do you even try?


Mooseburgers? Careful Sarah. Moose bite back!
by spacemanspiff on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:04:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why it must be Webb (2.00 / 0)

Hey it's his life.  Sometimes you just have to let go.


by MeganLocke on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:06:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why it must be Webb (none / 0)

YOU know , they can still see my comment and you can't HR it away... :)


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:37:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why it must be Webb (2.00 / 1)

Yup, your average southern redneck would think a male decorated war hero from the south and HILLARY CLINTON is a toss up?  

Pull the other one....


On Nov 4th, Barack Obama officially ends the Southern Strategy....
by WashStateBlue on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:10:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why it must be Webb (none / 0)

He's a veteran.  She's not.

And he's vehemently opposed the war.  She has not.

But I don't think he'd be the best choice.


by Drummond on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 03:36:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why it must be Webb (2.00 / 3)

Agree with zcflint05.  It's not a dealbreaker for me but it put him at the bottom of the list.

Which is such a shame - I had my heart set on him before I found out more about him.  He really is perfect on paper.


by MeganLocke on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:07:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Webb is a great senator BUT (2.00 / 4)

his record on sexual issues, sexism in the military and environmental issues (he just came out for off shore drilling for gas) is not great.  He is much better than I ever expected from a senator from Virginia, but much less than I expect from a Democratic vice president.  And, frankly, if we didn't already like him, I don't think we'd be so tolerant of his Scotch-Irish / Confederate history buff-ness.


John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 06:02:18 PM EST

Re: Why it must be Webb (2.00 / 0)

I like Webb a lot exactly where he is. Women will have a problem with him and I also think he'd have a hard time staying on message


Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.
by jsfox on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 06:13:33 PM EST

Reason 12: (none / 0)

The letter "W" needs to catch a break.


by xdem on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 06:15:24 PM EST

Webb selection would definitely push quite (2.00 / 1)

a few women to decide to sit out the Nov election. Without full strength women support, Dems, especially down the ticket will not win in several places.


by louisprandtl on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 06:23:57 PM EST

Re: Webb and the Feminine voteresses (none / 0)

This analysis would appear to be unsupported by the evidence as Senator Webb won his Senate seat in Virginia with a larger percentage of the womanly vote than of the manly variety.


by xdem on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 06:56:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'll let Kathy G.'s article in the Atlantic (2.00 / 1)

make my case..

http://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/a rchives/2008/05/ixnay_on_the_ebbway.php

Follow the second link to Ezra Klein's article on Jim Webb-Not VP. He makes a good case why Webb makes a good Senator but a bad VP choice.

http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/ezrak lein_archive?month=02&year=2008& base_name=webb_for_notvp


by louisprandtl on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:47:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'll let Kathy G.'s article in the Atlantic (2.00 / 1)

These are both good articles and educational for those who don't know much about Webb's very Republican recent history.

From the article by Ezra Klein, where he brings up the asset that Webb is in the Senate:

In the Senate, Webb ensures Democrats have a (probably) safe seat in Virginia, an aggressive and credentialed voice on national security, and a lawmaker with the knowledge and interest to set the legislative agenda on military affairs (as he has with prominent legislation seeking to guarantee soldiers as much time home as they spent deployed). From the vice-presidency, by contrast, he'd have to constantly watch his mouth, couldn't aggressively push the conversation beyond the president's agenda, couldn't actually pass laws, and would, in any case, have to leave the Senate, depriving Democrats of his voice in future legislative throwdowns and, quite possibly, his seat.

I have serious problems with Webb, because for one, he's way too conservative, and we need a more progressive VP, and two, because we just got a Democratic Senator elected in Virginia 2 years ago. Let's let him stay in the Senate and be the voice of experience against the war and for veteran's issues.


"Who are you for? That is the wrong question. It should be who is for you?" HRC
by skohayes on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 07:45:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

" the Feminine voteresses " ???? (none / 0)

No.


John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:54:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Webb selection would definitely push quite (none / 0)

The women in Virginia haven't done so.


by Drummond on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 03:37:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama must do no harm with his VP choice (2.00 / 4)

That means no one who would alienate the voting blocs that favored Hillary.

And that means no Webb.

Wes Clark could push the issues you're talking about, and picking him would unite the party. Also, Clark seems to like campaigning more than Webb. Keep Webb in the Senate.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 06:42:14 PM EST

Re: Obama must do no harm with his VP choice (none / 0)

Fear not! Obama could kick McSame's wrinkly old ass with one webb tied behind his richardson. No need to be concerned!


by xdem on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:09:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama must do no harm with his VP choice (2.00 / 3)

I think Clark is a better pick, also for his NATO experience, which is sort of like being CEO of a small country.

I like Webb, but he stays in the senate.


On Nov 4th, Barack Obama officially ends the Southern Strategy....
by WashStateBlue on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:12:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama must do no harm with his VP choice (none / 0)

I hate the idea of Clark.  His personality is all wrong for it - he's just too perpetually sunny.

Plus "general" anybody on the ticket is too cute.


by MeganLocke on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:34:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama must do no harm with his VP choice (none / 0)

You know, I agree with your statement EXCEPT for our now legendary "Hard working white people" I.E. The White Scottish Appalachian vote?

Well, guess who Jim Webb is?  

So, I agree, Webb is wrong, but IF you want to nail the rural PA, WV vote, believe me, Jim Webb speaks to those people.


On Nov 4th, Barack Obama officially ends the Southern Strategy....
by WashStateBlue on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:50:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama must do no harm with his VP choice (none / 0)

Heck, he even wrote a book about the Scots-Irish of Appalachia and their history of fighting for our country.

I like him as an attack dog, but he's got a history of going off-message and leans a little more towards the right than I'd like for a possible 45th president.


by Can I Haz Moar Snark on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:45:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No Tailhook apologists (2.00 / 3)

for VP please.


by JJE on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 06:56:07 PM EST

Re: No Tailhook apologists (none / 0)

So, you are concerned that with Webb on the ticket, Obama would lose to the man who calls his wife a c*nt?

Very interesting analysis.


by xdem on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:13:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Tailhook apologists (2.00 / 1)

I don't think he would lose.  In fact, I think Webb is the guy you pick when you absolutely, positively, need a win.  Webb delivers in so many ways.

Just speaking for myself, it's a moral issue.  He's said some pretty hideous stuff about women.  I don't want a VP candidate with that record.  Is he better than McCain?- obviously, but that's not the issue.


by MeganLocke on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:40:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Tailhook apologists (2.00 / 1)

Is that the comparison we want to make? Webb is slightly less of a sexist pig than McCain? Really?

I think we can do better.  Plus, the Confederacy stuff isn't a bonus in my book.


No Way. No How. No McCain.
by Denny Crane on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:43:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Tailhook apologists (none / 0)

Others have pointed this out - Webb objections are about the merits, not electability.  I don't buy his tough guy schtick and he has said some really dumb stuff.


by JJE on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:46:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Tailhook apologists (none / 0)

 Your characterization of Webb's toughness as 'schtick' undermines your credibility. Do a little basic research.  


by xdem on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:48:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I have done my research (none / 0)

I still don't buy it.  Raar!  raar!  I'm a fightin' Scots-Irish man!

He's fine, just not my favorite.  His pugnacity is good when it's directed at the administration, and his national security resume gives him great credibility there.  But he's got a blind spot on some issues.  He's also not a great campaigner - he probably wouldn't even be in the Senate if George Allen wasn't such a consummate tool.


by JJE on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 10:05:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No to Webb (2.00 / 2)

He is not right for VP for many different reasons.

If you want to put somebody with his type of creds on the ticket, then it must be Wes Clark who has even better creds than Webb.


Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:13:06 PM EST

Re: No to Webb (none / 0)

They're really different, and it's a different type of ticket.  Webb really nails down the cultural issues that Clark can't because of his Fred Rogers demeanor.

Again, I agree with zcflint on this, but I'm just saying I think Clark belongs in a different conversation.


by MeganLocke on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:37:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Webb Sexism (none / 0)

Could someone point me to his sexist remarks?  I just here it thrown around so much where there is o actual sexism, If im going to judge him on it I would like more then bloggers saying it.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:44:03 PM EST

Re: Webb Sexism (2.00 / 1)

I think it goes back to the 1970's/80's when he stated something to the effect that women shouldn't serve in the military.

I heard about this back in 2006.


by colebiancardi on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:01:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

His article in 1997 Weekly Standard was (none / 0)

a extension of his earlier recorded remarks...


by louisprandtl on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:09:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"His article in 1997 Weekly Standard" (none / 0)

Got that folks?  As late as '97, he was still in good standing with the invade/bomb/destroy neo con Weekly Standard crowd.  He turned around magnificently over the next 9 years, and by 2006 was a great candidate, and has been a great senator, but can you say for sure where he'll be in 2013?  I think it's a risk.


John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:59:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Webb Sexism (none / 0)

This article (posted above in another comment) in the The Atlantic by Matthew Yglesias has some relevant information:

In 1979, in an infamous article in The Washingtonian magazine called "Women Can't Fight," Webb argued that women were biologically unsuited to combat and didn't belong in the military academies. He said that the mere presence of women was "poisoning" the environment for male cadets. He also

declared that no senior female in a leadership position at the academy won her rank by merit, thereby impugning the accomplishments of every female midshipman and throwing fuel on the smoldering resentments of a vocal minority of disgruntled midshipmen.

Webb's writings on women did a hell of a lot of damage. It gave invaluable ammunition to the enemies of women's presence in the military and helped stall and perhaps even roll back women's progress there. Kathleen Murray, a 1984 academy graduate who went on to become a commander in the Navy, said of Webb's screed: "This article was brandished repeatedly. [Men] quoted and used it as an excuse to mistreat us." Her observation is confirmed by this post, which contains devastating testimony by women in the military about the effect Webb's writings had. For instance, here is what Commander Jennifer Brooks, USN(retired) had to say:

I was 19 years old and in my second year at the Academy when the Webb article came out. I was devastated to be told by a war hero that the Academy should be shut down rather than accept me, and that my very presence was responsible for the degradation of the military. As a best selling author, James Webb knew the power of words, and to describe the Naval Academy as `a horny woman's dream' was inexcusable. My mother read that.

I joined the Navy to serve my country. It was unbelievably demoralizing to be painted as a pampered slut who was taking up classroom space and pre-destined to endanger the lives of the brave young men around her.


If you're thinking that's ancient history, you're probably right. There's more:

You may say, well, that was way back in the 80s and late 70s. He's changed since then, right? But that is not exactly clear. At a 1991 convention of naval aviators called Tailhook, 83 women were reported to have been sexually harassed or assaulted by military personnel. From the beginning, Webb's concern for the victims was merely perfunctory. But he gave many speeches and wrote many articles vociferously defending the accused. In a 1992 article in the New York Times, he called the investigation of Tailhook a "witch hunt." In a 1997 article he wrote for the conservative Weekly Standard, he was highly critical of what he termed "ever-expanding sexual mixing" in the military and he referred to feminist efforts to improve the status of women in the military as merely "salving the egos of a group of never-satisfied social engineers."

And yes, once again he brought up Tailhook, and once again he showed himself more concerned with attacking feminists than with securing justice for the victims: "Events such as the 1991 Tailhook debacle have been seized upon and used by feminists to attack the military culture and bring about major concessions." Indeed, as late as the time this book was published (2004), Webb, according to the author, "persists in refusing to blame the Navy and Marine Corps officers who participated in the abuses of Tailhook, who failed to raise a hand to stop them and stonewalled the investigation that followed."

To be fair, Webb, who is pro-choice, has kinda sorta apologized for his past writings and statements on women in the military. He termed the infamous Washingtonian  article an "overreach." Um, that's putting it mildly.

http://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/a rchives/2008/05/ixnay_on_the_ebbway.php


"Who are you for? That is the wrong question. It should be who is for you?" HRC
by skohayes on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 08:52:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why it must be Webb (none / 0)

Surely you jest!
I would flee from OB if he picked a mini-maniac like Webb. DP, 357s, CFR and FISA flip-flop-with-a-twist was one thing.  But a redneck VP? Never.
 
by M1513 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:02:03 PM EST

Re: Why it must be Webb (2.00 / 0)

These a decent points -- Webb is not perfect, and he will have to answer for his past military boys club sexist stances.

But the thing is, he apoligizes well, the issues were well stated in the VA Primary and he came out on top there, obviously, and not without sizable support from women.

I think stategically, there's no veep prospect -- including hillary -- that makes better sense than Webb. I think Hillary may have some statistical benefits, but she's a lousy VP choice. She ended it for herself the day she went 'all in' by giving McCain better commander and chief props than McCain. That would be McCain's ad for the remainder, and it could work quite well for him.

Clark is fine, Sebelius is fine, Scruffy the wonder puppy would be fine too... but I really think Webb would do so much for the "not 'murkin 'enuff" demographic that went for Hillary in the primaries, but would go McCain in the general. (I'm looking at You, West Virginia.)


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:05:13 PM EST

Surely his MTP performance in 2006 was not (2.00 / 1)

a straight apology...Infact he still smirked when reminded of his "Naval academy is a horny woman's dream" remark..


by louisprandtl on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:12:33 PM EST

Re: Why it must be Webb (none / 0)

"Scruffy the wonder puppy would be fine too"

I don't know if Scruffy would survive the vetting.

He's kind of a love-hound, you know...


On Nov 4th, Barack Obama officially ends the Southern Strategy....
by WashStateBlue on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:16:01 PM EST

Re: Webb and FAUXNEWS FAUX CONCERN (2.00 / 1)

 Obviously, the Webb scares the crap out of the Right Wing. We have been treated to some right here.


by xdem on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:20:17 PM EST

Re: Webb and FAUXNEWS FAUX CONCERN (2.00 / 1)

I am left-wing and I can tell you, Webb is not on my top 10 list at all.

the man creeps me out in some visceral way.


by colebiancardi on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:25:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Isnt Webb one of our more conservative (none / 0)

democratic senators?  How does not supporting Webb for VP make one right wing?


John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 10:26:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Isnt Webb one of our more conservative (none / 0)

We live in suspicious times, my friend.


by MeganLocke on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 09:54:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This is surely an unfortunate remark from you. (2.00 / 1)

It is your choice to mark our concern in anyway you want but we have a right to voice our concerns about a Jim Webb VP candidacy. And this is no FauxNews concern...


by louisprandtl on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:29:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is surely an unfortunate remark from you. (none / 0)

That is true. But if you think about the candidates on paper, Webb is just about the perfect balance to Obama. Obama, gentle, educated minority with skeery muslim name; Jim Webb -- the senate equivilent of Col. Tigh. Of course, Tigh turned out to be the Cylon, so really, we're all screwed.


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:39:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is surely an unfortunate remark from you. (none / 0)

I know!

I wasn't aware of Webb's past until recently, and I'm not joking when I say it bums me out.  Every other VP possibility is just kind of "eh".  I guess I like Sibellius okay, but Obama can't pick a woman without the 11%ers seeing it as him picking a woman.  Not a:

Popular governor
of a western state
whose father was governor of Ohio
who was an early supporter of Obama
who has been one of his most effective spokespeople.


by MeganLocke on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 09:57:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is surely an unfortunate remark from you. (none / 0)

LOL Megan and she got what % of the vote during the primary?


by 12 dogs and a blog on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 02:03:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is surely an unfortunate remark from you. (none / 0)

She didn't run as I'm sure you know... I'm not sure what your point is?


by MeganLocke on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:23:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is surely an unfortunate remark from you. (none / 0)

Meaning she's not in the ball park.

Meaning she's not in the stands.

I'm just thinking there are more qualified candidates both male and female to be concidered before you get to the Gov. of Kansas.


by 12 dogs and a blog on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:12:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is surely an unfortunate remark from you. (none / 0)

With the understanding that this is fairly subjective, I can't think of any.


by MeganLocke on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 05:12:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

Hey Megan. Hope you had a great weekend and Happy Monday!

On this point, I like the fact that reasonable people can peacefully disagree. Nice.

I began writing my response and have decided to turn it into a diary entry as well. I posted it here so that you could see it and because it goes to the process of picking a VP.

(Thank you for reminding me of the subjective nature of the process. I've reviewed my own reasoning as a result. Thanks!)

But the short form? With Sen. Obama's recent shift to a campaign that looks more and more like a Sen. Clinton primary? To skip over Sen. Clinton for a 2nd tier option? He'd have to hate the woman's guts to skip her now. How do you explain it?

Something else troubles me. There's this undercurrent arguement that I find troubling for the Gov of Kansas or any woman running for political office. This is the argument that Sen.Clinton is too qualified for the office of Vice President but Gov.Sebelius in not. But, hey no worries, they're both women aren't they; they must be interchangeable. The reasoning is that the office of VP is nothing more than a do nothing job. The thought is that any idiot can do it. It seems that this is the reason why it would be okay to nominate the unknown Gov. of Kansas. She wouldn't be doing anything anyway. Doesn't matter what her qualifications are because, again, any idiot can do it. It doesn't seem to be important what skills she brings to an administration. As long as she knows her "place" is not someone who'd out shine Sen. Obama? She is considered highly qualified. Oh and if she can bring in Ohio all the better.

(Sounds like how they used to arrange marriages in the Old World. Give me your dowry(votes) and then go back to exile in that cold castle far away. You've served your function. Well unless the VP was required to birth an heir. There would be one obligatory night of sex and a beheading if you don't produce a future king. Lucky VP.)

What does that say about the Gov.? What does that say about Sen. Obama and his views on women in governent? What does that say about the future of women in general in the White House?

Doesn't do anything for either Sen.Clinton or Gov. Sebelius does it. This arguement doesn't do anything for Sen. Obama either. There is a danger of him looking petty and yes weak. Don't get me wrong Megan. I'd love the idea of having more than one highly qualified woman to chose from. The more qualified women candidates the better the future for women in general. But saying that Sen. Clinton is too qualified and Gov. Sebelius doesn't have to be because the VP job is a do nothing job? To me, it looks less like picking a qualified candidate. Looks less like picking a qualified woman candidate. Looks more like trying to get around picking the qualified person who is a woman to pick anyone else as long as they don't out shine the man.

There has to be a compelling reason to skip the highly qualified candidate other than, "Well I just don't like her." or "Well let's pick another woman, any woman, as long as she's not as strong as the guy. After all any idiot can do that job. Not a problem if she's less qualified."  You can't do that in the "real world" Megan. It wouldn't pass Human Resources. I believe it is considered an unfair hiring process. As a matter of fact, it would probably trigger a lawsuit. It has in my state. In that case, it was a matter of race not gender. My understanding though is that race and gender would have been equal in status as it was an issue of passing over the qualified candidate because they didn't want to hire someone because of their race. Insert gender for race? Looks like the same arguement to me.

I'd be interested in your opinion.

For me? I'm looking at the folks who ran in the presidential primary first. They have national support and actual dollars spent in the primary to promote their name and issues. Democrats then put confidence in these people by voting for them. The governor of Kansas doesn't have these qualifications however, the Senator from New York does.

Regardless of their gender.

I kind of thought that was the point of equality.

Again I'd really love to have your opinion.

Regards from an old feminist, RedNeck from the Deep South,

12 dogs


by 12 dogs and a blog on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:49:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is surely an unfortunate remark from you. (none / 0)

And just to dig the knife in further, it's not just that Webb "balances" Obama - he reinforces him.  They're both post-partisan types who made their reputation in opposition to the Iraq war.


by MeganLocke on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 09:58:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is surely an unfortunate remark from you. (none / 0)

I'm curious what your opinion was of Sen. Obama's recent comments about Iraq?


by 12 dogs and a blog on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:52:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why it must be Webb (none / 0)

 Webb! Smart. Tough as nails. He's a fuckin' rock star.


by xdem on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:30:14 PM EST

Re: Why it must be Webb (none / 0)

a rock star?  really?

everytime he is on the air, he kinda drones on.  He doesn't exactly light up a room with energy.  That is what a "rock star" does.


by colebiancardi on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:53:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why it must be Webb (none / 0)

 As my Dad used to say, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him pull his head out of his ass."


by xdem on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:57:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why it must be Webb (none / 0)

huh?  

make sense much?


by colebiancardi on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:45:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why it must be Webb (none / 0)

dark in there?


by xdem on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 12:22:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why it must be Webb (none / 0)

Cmon man.  Is your heart really that set on Webb?  So was mine.  But these are real concerns we have - they're not "concerns" if you know what I mean.


by MeganLocke on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 10:00:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why it must be Webb (none / 0)

If Obama wants my vote he will have to pick Webb for his VP, or at the very least offer it to him so he can turn it down.

Rise, Jim, Rise!


by xdem on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 12:04:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why it must be Webb (none / 0)

LOL MeganLocke? Feel the same way about the Gov of Kansas?

Ya'll this vetting process would never make it through Human Reasources guidelines would it?


by 12 dogs and a blog on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 02:05:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why it must [not] be Webb (none / 0)

I like Webb as a Senator, but I think he's a definite NO for VP.  Choosing Webb would piss off a lot of female voters, which is the LAST thing Obama needs to do.

I think it's gotta be either Clark or Clinton.  I can't think of any downsides to Clark nor a single demographic that he would offend.  Clinton's a little riskier choice, but damn they looked good together today in Unity!


by costanoan on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:35:40 PM EST

The problem is (none / 0)

going by some of the people on this site and others, anyone he picks will piss of the female vote.  Pick a male, females are angry, pick a female, females are angry.  


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 10:08:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The problem is (none / 0)

Well there's always that women, what was her name, ahhh ahhh Hii- Hille- you know the woman who was in the primaries, the one who got almost have the vote in the Dem primary. You know the one---Hillary

Hillary Clinton, that's the one.


by 12 dogs and a blog on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 10:52:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The problem is (none / 0)

Well, I'm sure a bunch of those same folks would be insulted that Hillary would have to be second fiddle to the "inferior black man" and "clean up after him".


by Can I Haz Moar Snark on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 11:43:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The problem is (none / 0)

Plus, Hillary would be a horrible VP candidate. Maybe a great Veep, but she (and Bill) would just never fit in that role.

I don't understand the continued push for Hillary as veep. She's a great Senator, and Obama is doing pretty well on the Unity front, despite a few still-grumpy loudmouths in blogland. The EV count at the top left of this site seems to imply that unity has been achieved.


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 07:14:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The problem is (none / 0)

I understand it.  They liked Hillary.  They want to see her as VP.

I think the problem is that they never liked Obama - at least not any more than they would a generic Democrat.  They don't see that Clinton as VP clashes with Obama in a really fundamental way.  Plus there's the whole "commander in chief threshold" brouhaha that will be played from now until November if she's chosen.


by MeganLocke on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 10:02:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The problem is (none / 0)

Thing is Megan, Hillary Clinton got votes. All the way to the end of the primary votes. As a matter of fact she got stronger not weaker.

It wasn't like it was a Huckabee-McCain finish.


by 12 dogs and a blog on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 02:32:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The problem is (none / 0)

I know that you prefer the Gov. of Kansas but I can't look past the fact that almost half of the votes in this primary went to Clinton. If you add that half to Sen. Obama folks? That's difficult to look past. Unless you are going to tell me that it's important for the Clinton folks to support Obama but not the Obama folks to support Clinton. So much for Unity.

Those are actually presidential votes. Webb barely won his Senate seat and Gov. of Kansas hasn't been in this national process at all. Biden would be a better choice than Webb. He actually got votes in the primary and has extensive experience in the Senate on military issues. And he too has a son in the military. I remember full well his comments about Geneva Convention protections.  Clark dropped out of the primary due to lack of supporters how can he be better than 50% of the primary voters for Clinton? Heck she got votes in KY. Again please compare this to the candidate that won almost 50% of actual votes for this PRESIDENTIAL primary. No one has given me compelling reason to vote for the other VPcandidates that can over come this voter turnout. I'm not a die hard Clinton fan. I'm just a pragmatic old feminist.

I've got to say myself those photos out of Unity did look good.

One other thing. What do you know about the Gov. of Kansas, Megan? She seems a bit calculating. Worse than I could imagine anyone else being. She just strikes me as being all about the Gov. of Kansas and not all about the pres nom. I get this because we knew who she was before she was Gov of Kansas. Before. Every move is calculated fot this Gov herself. If you're worried about Sen. Clinton's support for Sen. Obama, this one should bother as much or more. Unless you know more about her than I do. If so please share.


by 12 dogs and a blog on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 03:02:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Is America ready (none / 0)

for the picture of the announcement of the VP pick and Webb is the only White face in it.I dunno.


Ida B. The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane.-Mark Twain
by Ida B on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 10:22:08 PM EST


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